About this episode: “I feel like it’s almost harder for a woman to be supported by other women in Japan to some extent because I don’t think it’s a common idea that Japanese women want to change their conditions for themselves.” says Fanny, a French woman living in Japan. In this episode we talk about feminism in Japan. Do you know the word 「女子力」 (read as ‘jyoshi ryoku’)? It directly translates to ‘girl power’ but it’s not what you think it means.. 

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Transcript

INTRO

Fanny: I feel like it’s almost harder for a woman to be supported by other women in Japan to some extent because I don’t think it’s a common idea that Japanese women want to change their conditions for themselves. 

Kaho Koda: Every episode, we unpack one controversial opinion about the Japanese mindset, culture, and custom. 

Today’s controversial statement explores Feminism in Japan.  

From Human Burrito Productions, I’m your host Kaho Koda, and this is ‘Controversial Japan’. 

THE STORY

Kaho Koda: Fanny is a French woman living in Tokyo. She was born and raised in France and she never really had a fascination towards Japan. She joked in our interview that moving to Japan was quite random. During her bachelor’s, she knew she wanted to go overseas and since her university had a euro-Asia program, she decided to do a double degree with a Japanese university. And that’s how she moved to Japan.

She currently works for a French start-up company located in Tokyo, in the energy sector. And… wow, she explained how she got there, and I was impressed. She’s killing it!

Fanny joined her French company when they wanted to open their first branch in Japan. She spent a few months in Paris to get to know the business and she worked closely with a Japanese team. 

Fanny: When people ask me “When did you learn the most Japanese?” “When did you get the most fluent in Japanese?” It’s actually this four months in France with this Japanese team. Because it was for work and this was the first time that I really needed to be speaking and needed to understand what they were saying. Funny enough, I think my Japanese improved the most when I was in France with this Japanese team.

Kaho Koda: After she finished her training in Paris, Fanny moved back to Tokyo. It started with her renting a co-working space and working alone. But one by one, she hired Japanese employees and a year ago, they moved into their own office in downtown Shibuya. Now she has about a dozen employees working for the Japanese branch. 

Since her job is in the energy sector, her clients are big utility companies. And in the early days of the Japanese branch, when she was working solo, she basically had to convince these big utility companies to partner with her company. 

Fanny: When I first came back here alone, I had to meet some potential partners and try to convince them to work with us. And maybe two or three times… so we’re first exchanging emails and I write my name in katakana or romaji. So that partners wouldn’t necessarily know if ‘Fanny’ is a male or female name. And I remember two or three times arriving at the office and it’s just so funny that they would say straight away – they would just tell me in Japanese, “Oh I thought you would be a man.” And it’s just so… I wouldn’t say innocent, but it’s just so natural for them to say so. They can’t even think that it would be shocking to say that straight away. 

Kaho Koda: She proved to the potential partners that she had what it takes and eventually signed them on as clients. She said that she had absolutely no issues with the partners. And it was actually rewarding for her to convince them to work with her company. She’s proud of that, and yeah I’m impressed. She is such a boss! But then again, Fanny understands that her being French, an international, in other words, not Japanese, could have been a factor. She said that if she were a Japanese woman, it could have been harder to convince them.  

Feminism is a topic that she often discusses with her Japanese boyfriend. It first came up early in their relationship. 

Fanny said that he paid for everything during their first couple of dates. And she was getting uncomfortable to be treated all the time. And so one evening, she said she was going to the bathroom and paid the bill in secret. And he got upset. 

Fanny: I remember doing this and I remember him being really shocked and not really understanding. “Oh did I do something bad? Do you not want to see me anymore?” Like, no on the contrary, I appreciate being with you but I don’t want you to be treating me all of the time. I want to show you that I’m also an independent person. And that you don’t have to care for me so much, all of the time. 

Kaho Koda: Fanny explained that he had a specific image when it came to romantic relationships. The man has to pay for everything. He explained to her that his mom never paid anything before she married his dad. A bit of an extreme example, but that’s what he was expecting for his relationship as well.

Now, a couple years later, he appreciates Fanny paying her share. They love having discussions. Like the topic of Feminism. At the very beginning though, he didn’t quite understand the concept of feminism itself…

Fanny: He was not introduced or a fan of the concept of Feminism. What it means, what it is, and what it represents. And I think just by prejudice, he was reluctant to listen about it or know about it because for him – it sounds almost aggressive to him. “The women that are shouting at me and telling me what to do, that sounds painful.”

Kaho Koda: Fanny explained to him the qualities that he liked about her – that was a part of “Feminism” that he claimed to dislike. They pay rent equally. They divide chores around the house. He cooks more than she does, because according to Fanny, she’s not the best cook. He loves how independent and strong she is…

Fanny: It is funny to try and explain to him. I was kind of shocked at how the first image that he had of this word ‘Feminism’ and this idea was so negative. “Oh that sounds like something really bad” kind of reaction at first. 

Kaho Koda: Even in the western world, the fight for gender equality is ongoing. There are progressive countries out there, but there’s still so much work to do. 

But in Japan, Fanny had to start with defining the word ‘feminism’. 

Fanny also thinks that it’s not just the men who are reluctant to change… It’s actually also the women. 

Fanny:Talking to some Japanese women I realize that Japanese people, young people around me, don’t necessarily want the situation to change actually. Kind of like… they don’t enjoy or don’t appreciate women who are trying to be different or trying to stand up for changes. Or criticising Japanese society. I feel like it’s almost harder for a woman to be supported by other women in Japan to some extent because I don’t think it’s a common idea that Japanese women want to change their conditions for themselves.

Kaho Koda: Fanny is saying that it’s not just the men who are uncomfortable with Feminism. Some women are too. And they don’t want the situation to change. 

Today I want to discuss Feminism in Japan.

First, let’s dig a little further and investigate why some Japanese women don’t support Feminism. And later, we’ll get into other factors that deter gender equality. 

(SOME) JAPANESE WOMEN’S PERSPECTIVE

Kaho Koda: First off, I want to introduce the word 女子力 (jyoshi ryoku). Have you ever heard of this word before?

女子力 directly translates to ‘girl power’. 

You might think, “Oh, that’s a great word to describe Feminism! Girl Power! Yeah!”. 

Here’s Natsumi discussing the word. 

Natsumi: I really dislike the way that 女子力 is used in Japan. So 女子力, If you just look at the characters, it actually means ‘girl power’ right? So completely different thing in the western world. You know, standing up from themselves, doing what they want. You know.. All of that. Whereas in Japan, it’s basically qualities to become a good housewife, I think. Is my view on it.

Kaho Koda: There are many ways to explain 女子力, girl power. But having a high level of 女子力, means you possess traits of a beautiful Japanese women. Some are physical characteristics and some are, I agree with Natsumi, qualities of a good housewife. Here are some examples of having 女子力. 

Wearing a feminine outfit and looking beautiful. A skinny physique. Getting your nails done. Having gorgeous hair. Good at cleaning. Cooking a delicious meal.. 

Natsumi: I enjoy cooking for myself. Well, for people too. I enjoy it because I like to eat good food. So many people told me in high school, “Oh oh my gosh you like cooking, you have good 女子力, 女子力高いね”Right? And then “You’re gonna be such a good wife.” Im not cooking to become a good wife! I’m cooking because I want to eat good food for myself and give people good food. Not necessarily because I see becoming a good wife and cooking well as my end goal, right? But every single time “I like cooking” “Oh my gosh, wife material!”  

Kaho Koda: The term 女子力 is supposed to be a compliment. When people say it out loud, it’s usually with good intention. And not having 女子力, girl power, is supposed to be an insult.

女子力, girl power, was a buzz word back in 2009. And the words are used frequently amongst women. 

I’m also guilty of using the word 女子力 amongst my female friends back in high school. We would say that about ourselves, like, “Ugh, I have split ends in my hair… I need to increase my 女子力 and go to a hair salon asap”. 

Natsumi: You need to be a certain way to be a good female, be a good wife. You feel like “that should be my end goal. That is where my life is leading me to” and It’s very limiting.

Kaho Koda: Magazines bombard teenagers with titles like “How to increase your 女子力”. And multiple media sources tell you to increase your 女子力 by wearing trendy outfits and behaving girly. Hair removal ads, diet pills, and breast enhancement bras. The common narrative is “By using this product, you can look good for your boyfriend!” That kind of ad actually exists, by the way. 

Some teenagers believe it. I believed it. We follow it and obsess over it. And when we see a friend looking great, we compliment by saying “Wow, you have so much 女子力, girl power” 

At a certain point, it unconsciously became my goal when I was a teen. I wanted to look good and feel good. To have 女子力. To have quote on quote, girl power. 

Natsumi: It’s a very supporting role function. What it embodies. That’s what I dislike. The cooking isn’t supporting, but it’s providing for people. It sounds silly but having tissues and a handkerchief on you all of the time. Being able to support people in need. It’s not you going out to do something for yourself. Like you would think when you hear ‘Girl Power’. It’s being able to care for people, provide for people.

Kaho Koda: The ideal Japanese woman makes delicious meals. She won’t talk back. She’s understanding. She’s beautiful. She’s calm. She supports her husband…

Fanny: He was not introduced or a fan of the concept of Feminism. What it means, what it is, and what it represents. 

Kaho Koda: Here’s Fanny from our main story again, talking about her Japanese boyfriend.

Fanny: he was reluctant to listen about it or know about it because for him – it sounds almost aggressive to him. “The women that are shouting at me and telling me what to do, that sounds painful.”

Kaho Koda: When a Japanese man thinks of ‘Feminism’, they imagine women who are screaming for gender equality. They are loud. Too loud. Unladylike. They’re not calm. They’re threatening… A woman who stands for Feminism, who stands for gender equality, is the opposite of the ideal Japanese woman. 

I interviewed someone who struggled with this image of the ideal Japanese woman. 

Kaho Koda: Eri went to an all girls’ school. Because all her peers were female, she didn’t experience the gender divide until she got to university. 

In a Japanese university, it’s common to join a サークル (circle), basically an extracurricular activity. And Eri joined the tennis club. The サークル is not just meant for a specific activity. Obviously they play tennis as the tennis club, but the club also plans get-togethers, drinks, and outings. Joining these kinds of clubs is a way for university students to make friends with common interests. 

Eri recounted the tennis club getaway weekend she went to. After playing tennis and being active all day, she was hungry. She stood up for seconds after she finished her first serving. And when she stood up, she felt the other females glaring at her. 

Eri: When we had dinner or lunch, every time we eat, I wanted to eat more. Because the food that we had was really really good. And then the moment I would stand up to get an extra bowl of rice or something, all the other girls around me… They would look at me with these eyes saying like, “What are you doing?” And it’s this peer pressure that you have amongst girls. We’re girls and we’re delicate, fragile, and we don’t really eat a lot. We’re cute” you know that kind of stuff. I was kind of breaking that harmony that they were creating all together. But I wanted to eat more and I was hungry and… it’s just simple things like these but I think that these simple actions that I do or say would break the harmony of a lot of people. It kind of destroys their peace. 

Kaho Koda: She wasn’t conforming to the ideal Japanese woman role. She was breaking the harmony. In episode 1 we talked about 協調性, meaning being cooperative and harmonious. It’s a desirable personality trait in Japan and that concept applies here too. 

She said that she was breaking the harmony or the illusion of ‘ladies with a small appetite’ that her female friends were creating in front of the men. She became self aware with whatever she did or said. She said it started to feel suffocating and she wanted to know why her female friends conformed to their “ideal Japanese woman” roles. 

Eri: So then I asked a lot of my girl friends. “Why do you do this and that?” For example, “Aren’t you hungry? Don’t you want to eat more?” “You don’t like heels. Why do you wear heels?” At first, they would all say, “Because everyone is doing it” and then I would ask “Why do you think everyone is doing it?” And then they’d be like “Well isn’t it scary to stand out?” Also at the end, a lot of people would actually say that they want to be noticed by the certain guys that they like. They’re sure that the guys would like more of the cute feminine girls. So in order to please them, or in order to speak to the guys, they feel that they need to be more feminine, more cute. And that’s why they just kind of put themselves in that position. So that was the biggest findings that I had as a freshman in university. That was really upsetting. 

Kaho Koda: Remember, Japan is a collectivist culture where people like to belong in a community. What the community thinks outweighs what the individual wants. In a society shaped like so, it’s terrifying to stand out – so you blend in with the crowd. Rather than showing you have a big appetite, you don’t ask for seconds. 

Eri’s demeanor was threatening the other women. She lacked 女子力, girl power. They didn’t appreciate her breaking the harmony. 

This was upsetting for Eri…. But it didn’t end there. 

Next up: other factors that hinder gender equality: tradition and etiquette. 

Right after the break. 

Hi guys, writer & host, Kaho here. Thanks for listening to episode 4 of Controversial Japan! If you’ve enjoyed the podcast so far, please help us out by purchasing our merch. When you buy a cute totebag or a tshirt, we can continue to produce more episodes for you to enjoy. Go to shop.humanburrito.com  And thanks for your support! 

OTHER FACTORS

Kaho Koda: Of course, other women are not the only factors that hinder gender equality. Tradition and etiquette also come into play. 

Eri told me about a tradition in the tennis club. 

The baseball game with a rival university is one of the events that the entire university takes pride in. So even if a student is not that interested in baseball, it’s an event that students go to, for fun. The evening before this big baseball match, the tennis club has an evening planned. A tradition.

Eri: There’s a tradition in the tennis circle where the guys would go for a run around the Imperial Palace I think. 皇居ラン。And then after that they would do a sports all nighter. スポッチャオール。It’s like a guy thing apparently. 

Kaho Koda: The Imperial Palace in the heart of Tokyo has a big park. All the men go for a run around the park and later they head to this big entertainment facility. And there’s a bunch of fun activities you can do there: tennis, golf, soccer, trampoline, darts, table tennis, bowling, karaoke, kickboxing, archery, frisbee, roller skating… the list goes on and on. They have multiple locations all over Japan and some are open all night depending on the day of the week. Anyway, the men have fun at this entertainment facility all night long and without sleep, they head on to the big baseball game. Sounds fun, right? 

In the meantime, what do the women do? 

Eri: And then while they do that the girls are supposed to make bento boxes for all of the people in the club coming to the baseball match the next day. 

Kaho Koda: While the men are having a blast playing all kinds of sports, the first year women make lunches for everyone. Eri explained that there were ten females in her year who had to make bento boxes for fifty to sixty people overnight. And she didn’t want to do that… 

Eri: I wanted to join the sports all nighter because I thought it would be so fun. Some of my guy friends wanted to join in for the cooking because they like cooking and they wanted to chat, have fun casually making food.

Kaho Koda: Eri and her male friends decided that they wanted to talk to their senpai about it. Senpai – we talked about this term in episode 1 in the work environment, but in this context, the term refers to her seniors in the tennis club. 

Eri: We brought this up to our senpai. Everyone told us that we’re not allowed to change. We have to stick to what roles we’re given. Because it’s tradition. They were like, “It’s been like this for 51 years! So you can’t change tradition it. It’s disrespect to our alumni.”

Kaho Koda: The men play sports and the women cook all night before the big game – It’s been like this for more than fifty years. It’s tradition. We need to honor the tradition because breaking it is disrespectful to the alumni, to the senpais that came before them… It’s tradition. 

Eri was furious and in the end, decided not to join the bento box group, but her male friends joined the other women in the kitchen. She didn’t have the courage to go against her senpais or the tradition. She said she didn’t like it but she also didn’t want to create friction either. 

She said that the accumulation of these events made her realize that Japan was not the best place for her.. She left. She lives in Denmark now. 

Tradition and etiquette also exist in the workplace. 

I spoke with Sanhi, a Korean woman who works in a Japanese company. She’s lived in Japan since age 4, so she told me she has more of a Japanese mindset.  

Work wise, she believes that she doesn’t face any gender inequality. “Maybe when I have kids and go on maternity leave, it might be different, but for now, I think we’re treated equally”.

But then, she told me what bothers her outside of the office. Something that happens over drinks with her colleagues and bosses after work. 

Sanhi: お仕事だけを見たらないんだけど、飲み会とか？最初の方とかは結構。。。

Kaho Koda: Before I get into what Sanhi said, I need to explain the seating arrangement at the restaurant. It’s important to note this. The idea of 上座, the upper end of the table, and 下座, the lower end of the table. Hierarchy in the Japanese office is also evident in the seating arrangement at a restaurant. 

In the upper end of the table, called 上座, the bosses and senpais sit. These seats are further away from the entrance and are considered comfortable seats. The younger newcomers in the office sit at the lower end of the table, called 下座. It’s near the entrance or the most convenient place to make orders. In Japan, it’s customary for 1 person to order various dishes for a big group because dishes are usually shared. You get to try a bit of everything.

When the office workers arrive at the restaurant, they naturally sit according to what year they entered into the company. According to the hierarchy. If you’re the boss or senpai in the group, you make your way to the 上座, the upper end, and if you’re new to the company, you sit toward the 下座, the lower end. 

Sanhi: 同期の男の子達がいても、何故か私がお酒をついだり。。

Kaho Koda: Sanhi told me that no one really tells you outright about the seating arrangements. But as a new employee, you follow what your senpai teaches you and it happened somewhat naturally. At her first big get together after work, a female senpai taught her how to order. Her female senpai gave Sanhi tips on how to order for a big group. And she followed what her female senpai taught her to do. 

She thought it was weird. She looked around the table and noticed how gendered the seating was. Of course it’s not a clear divide. The female bosses also sit at the upper end. But when she looked at her male colleagues, so the men who entered the company the same time as she did, so they are equals, they were sitting closer to the upper end of the table, where the senpais and bosses were seated, while all the females were sitting at the lower end to order food. The women were the ones to top off drinks. Her male colleagues didn’t do that. She emphasized that it’s not coerced, more so, that’s what the atmosphere is at her office. It’s what’s expected.. 

Sanhi: それはちょっと違和感があって。。。

Kaho Koda: She explained that there was a sense of discomfort. She didn’t like it. She realized that the men were not taught how to order, it was just the women. She told me she googled it back then to learn why it was so gendered. And she read that these things were good manners. It’s etiquette for the women to order food and to top off everyone’s drinks. 

I looked it up too. I found blogs from quote on quote ‘etiquette coaches’ – yes in case you’re wondering, these titles exist in Japan. They give lectures and workshops on etiquette in the workplace and everyday life. 

Anyway, I read different articles. And many of them state that the seating arrangement is to show respect to your bosses and senpais. It’s the respect to the hierarchy. It didn’t talk about the gender divide… until I found an etiquette blog post specifically for women. 

In the seating section of the blogpost, it says “Unless you are the boss of the entire group, as a woman, you should sit towards the 下座 (i.e. the lower end of the table). This doesn’t mean that women are inferior to men, it’s just that it’s easier to order at the lower end and it’s easier to get to the washroom.”. 

Women are not inferior to men, but women have to order food and look out for the group while the male colleagues become more and more acquainted with their bosses and senpais. 

TAKE AWAY

Kaho Koda: The ideal Japanese woman with good housewife qualities is a narrative that is kept alive amongst females. And in a conservative country like Japan where people love to continue with tradition, change doesn’t happen so fast. 

Chikako:やっぱり、最近は働きたいっていう女の人が本当に増えてるから。。。

Kaho Koda: Chikako, who works at a prestigious Japanese publishing company in Tokyo, said that at this moment, she doesn’t feel like she’s being treated differently because she’s a woman. But when she looks above, when she looks towards upper management, there are no women. 

She has hope though. Times are changing. It’s slow, but it’s still a change. And we, women in our 20s and 30s, are in the midst of that change. Nowadays it’s getting more and more common for women to continue working after marriage. It’s an option now. It’s possible. 

She reflected that working after marriage was not an option for her mom’s generation. For the baby boomers it was common to leave work and become a housewife. 

She said, “I feel like we’re on the verge of change”. 

Chikako: やっぱり自分でどうやって時間をやりくりして、育児と仕事両方やるかって、すごい個人に委ねられている。 

Kaho Koda: Chikako doesn’t know if her company supports female employees who are mothers. Objectively speaking, she said that it seems like time management depends on the individual. She feels like the company and society won’t necessarily help her. At the end of the day, it’s up to you. 

Chikako’s immediate boss is a working mother. Having a female leader is rare in her company, so she’s thankful. She gets to see first hand that if you want to make it work, you can. But it’s up to you.

CREDITS

Kaho Koda: Controversial Japan is produced by Human Burrito Productions. 

We interviewed Fanny Berteaud, Natsumi Funabiki, and anonymous individuals for this episode.

Our sound designer is Junan and you can listen to more of her tunes on spotify. Our theme song, ‘Coast to Coast’ is by Mikara and you can also check out her music via Spotify. Artwork by Macie Matthews, you can see more of Macie’s design on her website maciematthews.com

Technical support by Rutger Wink.

If you’d like to support our podcast by purchasing our merch – designed by the talented Macie Matthews who also created our podcast cover, visit our webstore: shop.humanburrito.com. We have a lot of cute things like tote bags and t-shirts. 

Check out our website for more info at humanburrito.com and if you’d like to send us a message, you can email us at humanburritoproductions@gmail.com . 

We’ll be back with more controversial opinions about Japan. Till next time.