About this episode: “If you live in Japan, and work in a Japanese company, you need to follow the Japanese custom.” says Misora, a Japanese woman working in Tokyo. First, we follow Misora’s story about her ‘lazy’ colleague Paul. We also discuss Paul’s perspective – the western individualistic point of view. 

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Transcript

INTRO

Misora: 日本に住んでて、この会社で、日本の会社で働きたいんだったら、やっぱ日本人に、の文化に合わせなきゃいけないな、とは思う。

Kaho Koda: If you live in Japan, and work in a Japanese company, you need to follow the Japanese custom. 

Every episode, we unpack controversial opinions about the Japanese mindset, culture, and custom. Today’s controversial statement is about the Japanese office. From Human Burrito Productions, I’m your host Kaho Koda, and this is ‘Controversial Japan’. 

THE STORY

Kaho Koda: Misora is a Japanese woman in her late twenties. She currently lives in Tokyo and works for a Japanese media company, in the English department. She has Japanese colleagues as well as foreign colleagues. Many Americans, actually. 

Her male colleague, let’s call him Paul, because I never asked for his name and it’ll just be easier for me to tell the story. So, Paul. He’s from the US. 

The work hours set in their department is 10am to 7 pm. Around 6:50pm, (to quote Misora), Paul becomes a little restless. He checks the time frequently, then prepares to turn off his computer, packs up his belongings, and by 7:01, he’s out the door.  

Nothing weird going on here, right? You might think, what am I not getting? 

Here’s what happens after he leaves at 7pm sharp. His fellow colleagues and bosses stay and continue working past their contracted hour. Even if there’s no immediate deadline they have to meet that day, they continue working as long as their bosses and colleagues are there.  

Why?

Misora: そう、だから多分、私がね、仕事が例えば１９時に仕事終わってました、私も定時だから本当は帰っていいわけよ。。

Kaho Koda: Misora elaborates, if she’s finished all of her work by 7pm, theoretically, she can leave. Stress on the ‘theoretically’ here, because she won’t. If her colleagues and bosses are still working on something, she’ll help out. Even if there’s nothing urgent to finish that day, she’ll stay because there’s always something to do. She says it’s better to finish projects earlier than the deadline anyway. She adds, it’s also awkward to leave the office when her boss and colleagues are still working. 

Teamwork and respect towards your boss – that’s what’s happening here, in the Japanese office. I asked Misora if anyone else besides Paul leaves the office at 7pm. She answered no, at least not in her department. Then, I asked her if she’s ever worked with a Japanese colleague who leaves at the time set in the contract. And she answered, no, never. And that if a Japanese person would do what Paul did, everyone would think less of him or her. She says, they shouldn’t, but they would… 

Paul thought of himself as a hardworking employee, but that’s not how his colleagues saw him. He was eventually labeled ‘the lazy guy’ in the office. After all, he leaves the office “early” at 7pm. Not really a team player from his colleagues’ point of view. 

Once, Paul expressed his frustration towards being known as ‘the lazy guy’ in the office. He didn’t understand why he was given that label since he works so hard… so hard. Till 7pm.

Misora realized he didn’t understand the fundamentals of the Japanese workplace. So she explained. How the Japanese mindset works in the office. How his Japanese colleagues see him when he leaves at 7pm. Why he was not seen as a team player.. 

He responded, “that’s not right”. 

And yeah, Misora understood. She sympathized with him. He’s doing nothing wrong. 10am to 7pm, that’s his contract. He’s following what’s written in the contract. 7pm onwards, it’s his private time. Whether it be with family, friends, or by himself, that shouldn’t be the company’s concern. And it’s not his fault that the rest of the office is willing to work additional hours.     

Misora’s been in a similar position as Paul before, in her case, struggling in the American workplace. 

A couple years ago, she was sent to New York to support the opening of Japanese steak restaurants. She worked in a different industry back then. And she had a difficult time working with Americans. 

From a hardworking, “your job comes first” Japanese point of view, she saw first hand how people perceive ‘work’ in the US was very different from Japan. To generalize, and she knows she’s generalizing, but… she saw Americans as people who prioritize their personal lives. Work came second, or even third. That was culture shock for her. The first two months, she was under a lot of stress. 

One time in winter, for example, one of the restaurants’ pipes froze, and as a result, the ceiling fell off into the kitchen. She received the call at around midnight from maintenance and without hesitation, rushed to the restaurant. Once she saw the damage, she called the restaurant’s manager. She explained what had happened at the restaurant and asked for his assistance to sort things out. 

The manager’s response was the following. “I can’t come in. It’s my day off”.  

She was so frustrated. He’s the manager, he’s responsible for this restaurant. But she didn’t argue with him. She worked it out on her own. And she reminded herself: This is how it is in the US. There’s a clear divide between work and personal life. It’s not like Japan where everyone is expected to drop what they’re doing to answer a work emergency. So don’t expect that from this manager.

So yeah, she gets Paul’s “that’s not right” response considering he’s from the US where it’s accepted, encouraged even, to leave at a set time. Work-life balance, right? 

However, she also thinks, if that’s what you insist at this Japanese company, you won’t last long. 

Misora: だからやっぱり郷には郷に従え、っていう言葉が本当、一番。私が海外で仕事する人に対するアドバイス。

Kaho Koda: Misora’s advice towards anyone who is working overseas, away from your country, even if it’s not Japan, is this. 「郷に入っては郷に従え」 It’s a Japanese proverb that’s equivalent to “When in rome, do as the Romans do”. 

In this case, if you live in Japan, and work in a Japanese company, you need to follow the Japanese custom. Accept it, and move on. Just like what she did, when she worked in the US. 

It comes down to this: Paul thinks it’s not fair to be labeled the lazy guy, since he works hard. On the contrary, Misora believes that if you’re working in a Japanese office, you gotta understand how being called lazy in this situation is inevitable. 

We’re going to investigate these polar opposites today. 

First, let’s dive into the Japanese workplace and look at Misora’s point of view. 

MISORA’S POINT OF VIEW

Kaho Koda: To understand more about Misora’s statement, let’s take a moment to consider the Japanese work environment. The two key concepts I want to focus on right now are: cooperation and respect towards the hierarchy. 

Japan is a prime example of collectivist culture, which means that we prioritize the needs of the community rather than the individual. We find virtue in being considerate of others and being cooperative. Caring for your community. Team work. The word, 「協調性」-  meaning being cooperative and harmonious, is a desirable trait. 

So when you ask for your own wants and needs, you’re seen as a little bit selfish.

And in a collectivist culture like Japan, this 協調性, being harmonious, is a big part of decision making. Our minds are shaped into wanting to belong to the community from a young age. And eventually, we are conditioned to make decisions keeping the community in mind. Sometimes the decision can be based on how the society expects us to choose. 

I have a distinct memory from when I was seven. My family had just moved back to Tokyo from Seattle. In the US, my teachers praised me for my colorful outfits and how adorable I was. I was taught that my uniqueness was something worth celebrating. And so I was this proud kid. 

My bubbly fun personality was not well received in Japan. I was unapologetically loud and that was translated to being inconsiderate of others around me. I was a show off for raising my hand in class when I knew the answer to the teacher’s question. And I was a selfish girl for talking too much about myself. There were so many unspoken rules that everyone knew that I was not aware of.. 

Natsumi shared a similar experience. She’s a Japanese woman in her 20s and she moved around Hong Kong, Bahrain, the U.K, and eventually moved to Japan for the first time at age 10. 

Natsumi: I went to like a – what do you call it? Like a normal Japanese primary school? It was the first time I ever had classes in Japanese. Being surrounded by just Japanese people. The first time I got told off for drinking water in class. And I was like, “That doesn’t make any sense.  I’m thirsty!” And they were just like, “No you can’t do that.” and I was like “Oh.. okay”. And they were like, “It’s a rule, like you’re not supposed to drink or eat in class”. “But I’m thirsty”. And they’re like “You have to wait until the hour’s over”.  

Kaho Koda: Kids can be so blunt, innocent, and evil. So yeah, Natsumi and I learned that we’re supposed to follow the unspoken rules in society, whatever our peers were following. I mean, school is a mini society. We quickly learned that standing out in school is not a great thing. As a survival method, (which is not how we perceived it back then but) as a survival method, both Natsumi and I started following what others were doing. 

I stopped raising my hand in class. I started to copy what my friends were wearing and avoided colorful dresses. I started to conform to what my friends were doing, what Japanese society asked of me. As a kid, you learn these things. You need to conform to survive. It is what it is. 

And we’ll explore the Japanese 協調性 – the state of being harmonious – in a later episode in depth. But for now, let’s go back to Misora and her office. 

If Misora left the office earlier than her boss, what would her colleagues think of her? 

Generally speaking, as a collectivist culture, teamwork and achieving goals as a team are valued more compared to individual wins in Japan. You have to be a team player to succeed in the Japanese office. Just like how Misora and her colleagues stay late to help each other out. 

So picture this, this one guy, Paul leaving the office at 7pm every workday when everyone else stays to work till 8, 9, or even 10pm. Working together, as a team… without Paul. Doesn’t look amazing, does it? 

There’s a downside to collectivist culture. It takes a long time and countless meetings to make decisions as an entity. 

Angela: I think the problem with the bureaucracy is that it’s not productive bureaucracy, I would say.

Kaho Koda: This is… Angela, I’ll name her Angela just because she wanted to stay anonymous. She’s an English teacher from London, working at a Japanese elementary and middle school. She expresses her frustration towards the Japanese not-so-productive bureaucratic ways.  

Angela: It’s a meeting to put the idea on the table. To then, raise the idea up the line with meeting after meeting after meeting. To then realise, “we’re not sure about this” and bring it back down. Then meeting after meeting after meeting. “Oh.. but we have to ask someone higher so it goes up again, and then comes back down. But it doesn’t quite get anywhere. And I have a co-worker who before she was a teacher, she…

Kaho Koda: Angela tells me a story about her co-worker Lisa. Lisa, before she became an English teacher in Japan, used to work in the Energy and Trade industry as a liaison for the Japanese branch. 

One day, Lisa notified the Japanese branch that the operating system was changing across all the offices in the world. 

The conversation went like this. 

Kaho Koda: Lisa said, 

Angela: Here’s the new system, here’s what’s happening. Here’s how it’s going to change.

Kaho Koda: Japanese branch said, 

Angela: We have to have a meeting about this with the higher ups. 

Kaho Koda: Lisa said,

Angela: No no no, the system is changing. 

Kaho Koda: And then the Japanese branch said, 

Angela: We’re not sure, what are the details of this change? We have to know all the features.

Kaho Koda: Lisa.

Angela: It’s changing anyway.

Kaho Koda: Japanese branch.

Angela: We’ll have to talk to our boss about this. We’re not very sure about this aspect. 

Kaho Koda: Lisa.

Angela: It’s got to happen. This international company is changing its global system. This is coming.

Kaho Koda: Japanese branch.

Angela: We’re not entirely sure about some of these points though. We’re going to have another meeting. We’re gonna send this up another level. 

Kaho Koda: Lisa.

Angela: How are you slowing this down so much? We are updating the system we are working on. It is going to change.  

Kaho Koda: Japanese branch. 

Angela: We need to have a meeting about this. 

Kaho Koda: Talk about those meetings that could have been an email. I guess you could call this next level, from the western perspective. In Japan, not so much. As a collectivist culture, you need to consult with everyone: the management, higher-ups and so on. It takes a long time to come up with a decision. That’s what the Japanese branch was doing. And that translated to repetitive not-so-productive meetings from Lisa’s point of view. 

To put it in harsh terms, you’re not expected to be an independent thinker in Japan, especially as someone ‘new’ or ‘young’ in the company. 

And sometimes, even Japanese individuals can’t take this kind of environment. Eri is one of them.

Eri is a Japanese Master’s student, studying applied cultural analysis in Denmark. Eri isn’t her real name by the way, since she wanted to stay anonymous. Before she pursued her Master’s Degree, she looked for jobs in Japan.  

Eri: Once I went to an interview for a small start-up company or something. It was something to do with international topics, so I thought, maybe someone like me, the’d appreciate. 

Kaho Koda: Eri was raised in South Korea, Malaysia and Japan, so she has an international mindset. She thought her outspoken self would be appreciated in this work environment. Butttt….

Eri: So I went into the interview and they told me I asked too many questions. And that I’m too unique and that I’m too opinionated. What they need is someone that can take on the responsibility, what they’re asked for. Someone who can fill in the role in the company, as a plain white… They literally said “White plain piece of paper”. I was really shocked. They also told me to stop talking, or they told me to stop elaborating on certain things because we didn’t ask you the questions yet. And for me it’s important to state why I think about certain things. And they told me I waste their time because I talk too much and they don’t want to know why I did this.  

Kaho Koda: With my limited work experience in Japan and from what I hear through these interviews, I get the impression that experience is not a major requirement when you enter a new company as a newly graduate. 

The metaphor “a white piece of paper” reminds me of new beginnings. A new chapter in life. A blank slate. A fresh young mind that can easily absorb and follow the company culture and by doing so, someone that’ll respect your experienced bosses and tradition of the company. In the beginning you are asked to, (my mistake – not even asked since these are things you should know by the time when you start working) so you are expected to follow orders from your supervisor. 

Your supervisor is your 先輩, an older and experienced person who knows his or her way around the office. Anyone who has been in the company longer than you have, automatically becomes your 先輩. They’ve been working here for a long time and therefore, are wiser. 

My guess is that the international startup that Eri interviewed at was trying to caution Eri: First, listen to your 先輩 and learn the ways of this company. Respect your 先輩. Respect the hierarchy. 

Showing respect can be done in many ways, of course. 

Back to our main story, in Misora’s case, she stays late at work because her boss is also working hard and she wants to help out. There’s also a formal speech you can use when you talk to someone above you, whom you respect. Address the person with the title「先輩」 or 「さん」 at the end of their name. So for example Misoraさん or Misora先輩。

Respecting your 先輩 or boss is so natural in Japan. It’s just so instinctual that I didn’t know how to formulate my questions to Japanese people in their interviews.  

“Do you respect your boss?” 

“How do you show respect towards your boss?”

Sounds like a stupid question. Ewww nope, not gonna ask that. 

I also realized that sometimes when you’re so deep into the cultural norm, you become oblivious to the fact that it’s always there. And you don’t think about it. 

Perhaps when someone not used to this hierarchy, witnesses or experiences it, it becomes more apparent. So instead of asking Japanese people awkwardly phrased questions, I asked expats working in Japan if they experienced or saw the hierarchy in the workplace. 

And most of them, if not all, said yes – they’ve seen some form of hierarchy in their respective workplaces. But they also acknowledged that they only saw snippets of it since they don’t understand the Japanese language to its full extent. Fair enough. Then…. I talked to Patrick. 

Patrick is an English teacher at a Japanese high school. He’s been teaching in Japan for over two years now, and he’s a first generation Thai American born and raised in LA. When I talked to him about the hierarchy in the workplace, he gave me an interesting answer.

Patrick: Even in the limited interactions that I have with some teachers, because some of them might speak English and that’s the only language I can actually communicate in. And I do notice new teachers definitely call me ‘sensei’ at the end…

Kaho Koda: So that would be Patrick 先生. 先生 means teacher. So basically he’s called ‘Patrick teacher.’ from the new teachers. 

Patrick: They’ll ask me how things are done because they’re newer than me. So they still treat me like a jr sr kind of… Older teachers will more likely tell me what to do and the younger teachers are more likely to ask me what should we do. 

Kaho Koda: From the older teacher’s perspective, Patrick is new. He needs to be taught how it’s done at this school. So let’s give him instructions. From the new teacher’s perspective, Patrick has been teaching at this school before they came into the picture. Then he must know how things are done around here. Let’s ask him for his opinion. 

Respecting someone older who has more life experience than you. That could be your parents, your teacher, your 先輩, your boss.. 

Let’s go back to our main story, Paul again. By leaving at 7pm, even if that was his contracted time, Paul didn’t look good. He turned out to be seen as the lazy colleague who didn’t want to help his team or show respect towards his boss. That’s how he was seen in his workplace anyway. 

So Misora’s opinion: if you’re working in a Japanese office as a foreigner, you need to understand that being called ‘lazy’ is inevitable. Because of 協調性, meaning being harmonious and cooperative. And because of the respect to your 先輩 and boss. 

Paul’s response, how unfair that is… Let’s look at that next. Right after the break. 

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PAUL’S POINT OF VIEW

Kaho Koda: And then there’s Paul’s perspective to consider. In other words, the North American perspective. 

As opposed to the Japanese collectivist culture, the US puts emphasis on the individual and work-life balance more than Japan. 

If you have a western individualistic background, you probably thought one or more of the following: 

1. His contract is binding and it’s wrong to be peer pressured into working late.
2. Work-life balance is important.
3. Mental health is also important.
4. Honor the contract.
5. Who cares if your colleagues think of you as the lazy one.

So as a foreigner working in Japan, what is the right move? I want to try and answer that in this segment. 

And I wanna introduce Cuau. 

Cuau is a filmmaker originally from Mexico. He currently lives in Toronto, Canada, but he lived in Japan for 5 years. Back then, he worked for a Japanese company that made magazines for foreign tourists. All of the managing staff was Japanese, but since it’s a magazine for foreign tourists, he had many expat colleagues as well. And his Japanese colleagues had some kind of experience abroad. They all had a genuine passion to share Japan with the world. 

Cuau knew about the hierarchy in the workplace before entering into the company. He had already lived in Japan for a few years by then, so he knew what to expect. That doesn’t mean it was not going to be challenging.

Cuau: I enjoy more of an independent management style where I get to make my own decisions and you know… I do love working in a team but sometimes it felt too micromanaged at times. I would have to report a lot more. A lot of it I thought was taking away from the main thing that I was supposed to be doing.

Kaho Koda: Cuau explained that it was not as strict as a typical Japanese company because the company knew that they could not expect foreigners to be at the same level as a Japanese employee. But he also acknowledged that ‘consideration’ is not the right word to describe it. He used the word ‘resignation’ as in, it can’t be helped. 

Cuau: The thing is that we were coming from such different places that even though both of us were trying to meet halfway. Where I would be extra careful to report more things than I thought was necessary or ask guidance more than I thought was necessary.  Neither of us were getting what we wanted in a way. So there was a lot of getting used to, I think. 

It took a while for me to be recognized and trusted. It definitely took a little me. Part of that was not just my work, but also my willingness to play by the rules. There were so many brilliant people working for the company, but maybe they were less willing to work the Japanese way. Those people usually never had a smooth (sailing)… They would eventually quit quite quickly. And in all fairness that’s also partly the reason I left…

Kaho Koda: So.. the foreigners that were not willing to understand and follow the Japanese customs ended up quitting the company. Cuau left the company because he was moving to Canada, but he admitted that a part of it was also due to the fact that he didn’t see himself growing like how he wanted to. In the long run, the Japanese management style was not for him. 

I asked Cuau what we’ve been discussing in this episode: As a foreigner, do you need to follow the Japanese custom to succeed in the Japanese work environment? 

Cuau: You have to be creative. The thing is that a lot of westerners tend to be egocentric… A lot of westerners have ideas of individuality and freedom at all costs.. Able to do what I want whenever I want. That clashes a lot with Japanese work culture and mentality. And being completely honest, there was a part of me too, of course. The dissatisfaction of working in Japan. If I had been more conscious, knowing what I know now…

Kaho Koda: Cuau told me about his current job in Canada. He works for a personal development school and over the course of working there, he’s learned how the subconscious mind works. And so how he interprets the situation now has changed compared to when he worked in Japan. 

Cuau: Knowing what I do know now…. There’s always ways to grow and expand and be successful in Japan in any industry. But you have to play by different rules. Not being so self-centered. Being okay with sometimes not getting the credit you wanted. Being less self-centered. If your ego gets hurt easily, you’re gonna have a tough time in Japan. 

The best is always the balance. Working in a team, working as a community, that yields the best results, but also you can’t ignore your own personal needs. Avoiding conflict tends to disregard your own needs… so at the end of the day, it’s somewhere in between.

Kaho Koda: The conversation with Cuau made things clearer. 

“Working in a team yields the best results, but also you can’t ignore your own personal needs” It’s the struggle of ‘community vs. individuality’. A clash is bound to happen when it’s this much of a polar opposite. Balancing those two could be the answer. 

Potentially. Maybe. 

TAKE AWAY

Misora: 日本に住んでて、この会社で、日本の会社で働きたいんだったら、やっぱ日本人に、の文化に合わせなきゃいけないな、とは思う。

Kaho Koda: Misora’s advice: “If you live in Japan, and work in a Japanese company, you need to follow the Japanese custom.”

Misora: 別にそうしろ、とまでは言わないけど、それを理解しておいたほうがいいよ。変にストレス感じないと思うよ、そうした方が生きやすいよ、と思う。

Kaho Koda: Maybe not necessarily follow the custom blindly, Misora backpedals, but understand how your behaviour is perceived here. Even just knowing, makes your life easier. Less wondering, less stress. 

According to the Ministry of Health, Labor, and Welfare, there were a total of 1,724,328 foreign workers in Japan in 2020. That means that roughly 2.6% of the labor force in Japan are foreign workers. The number has been on the rise every year, even despite the corona crisis. 

Japan is no doubt a homogenous society. In January 2019, it was reported that fo reigners living in Japan exceeded 2% of the entire population for the first time… 2%. That became news. So that means 98% of the population is Japanese. 

98%. Let that sink in.  

CREDITS

Kaho Koda: Controversial Japan is produced by Human Burrito Productions. 

We interviewed Misora Yamaya, Natsumi Funabiki, Patrick Phan, Cuauhtemoc Velazquez , and other anonymous individuals for this episode.

Our sound designer is Junan and you can check out more of her tunes on spotify. Our theme song, ‘Coast to Coast’ is by Mikara and you can also listen to her on Spotify. Artwork by Macie Matthews, you can see more of Macie’s design on her website maciematthews.com

Technical support by Rutger Wink and special thanks to Sophia Gupta and Eelke Verboom.

If you’d like to support our podcast by purchasing our merch – designed by the talented Macie Matthews who also created our podcast cover, visit our webstore: shop.humanburrito.com. We have a lot of cute things like tote bags and t-shirts. 

Check out our website for more info at humanburrito.com and if you’d like to send us a message, you can email us at humanburritoproductions@gmail.com . 

We’ll be back with more controversial opinions about Japan. Till next time.